Immad says:
for one thing, i have come to respect other ppl's opinions and beliefs much more so than i did in pakistan. and find some happenings in pakistan (such as lal masjid one) to be shocking somehow. in addition, have learned to (or atleast trying to) see the world in a global perspective, rather than just a pakistani/muslim perspective
Immad says:
i dunno whether thats a +ve or a -ve development though
Raza says:
thats +ve in my books at least
Immad says:
interacting with other ppl make u realize the rich culture/heritage they have, and make u think about them as humans on equal scales in a sense, rather than stereotyping them
Raza says:
exactly
Raza says:
at the least the followers of a universal religion must have enough open mind that works at a global level
Raza says:
some have so restricted that theirs stop functioning once they leave their city
Immad says:
very true
Immad says:
excessively enforcing ur view of the world on every one else is a rather unhealthy practice, more so if it is done violating the law!
Immad says:
i hope we do grow up sometime
Raza says:
yeah
Raza says:
long road ahead
Immad says:
i hope we last all the way
Raza says:
at least one generation must "die out" to let the changes happen, evolution will have its way then
Immad says:
the change of environment does have a big effect on u, back in pakistan i usde to imagine "how can one not be a muslim". now i imagine "how on earth can everyone be a muslim?"
Raza says:
:D
Raza says:
that was a good one
Immad says:
this is not to imply any decrease in my religous beliefs, but a realization and acceptance of ppl with other faiths
Raza says:
actually everyone can be a muslim, once we stop thinking that everyone will be like ourselves
Immad says:
maybe. though a muslim does have to satisfy certain criteria, and once a pre-determined criteria comes into picture, there are bound to be conflicts
Raza says:
yeah
Raza says:
but those criteria are actually very few, most of the rest we have enforced on ourselves
Raza says:
if we distill it down to the essence
Raza says:
most can possibly accept it
Immad says:
guess so. though i dont think that most ppl would accept a minimalist definition of islam. i mean, we have so many sects simply because of differences in the details they follow
Raza says:
of course
Raza says:
but there are not many sects in islam who say that, there are more than one gods and Muhammad ( PBUH) is not the messenger
Immad says:
thats true.
Raza says:
most of the conflict is actually lack of knowledge and i m not talking about jahilliyat
Raza says:
i m talking about the fact that both can interpret one thing in two ways and both cannot conlusively prove the other one wrong
Raza says:
that uncertainity is due to lack of facts and lack of research on those facts
Raza says:
and then finally due to lack of objectivity
Immad says:
that is true. i guess one has to learn to be tolerant of those with slightly different beliefs.
Raza says:
yeah
Raza says:
have to keep an open mind and listen to people
Raza says:
but as opposed to the scientific process, religious minds are trained to shun objectivity
Raza says:
subjectivity is the name of the game
Raza says:
and that causes ill feeling towards everyone
Immad says:
very true.
Immad says:
i guess u can introduce objectivity into religion without dangering ppl's belief by agreeing on a set of 'subjective' (as we cant prove them) religious axioms, and then applying rational thought after that perhaps
Raza says:
let the knowledge grow and incorrect ideas will prove themselves false, learn to accept ideas on the basis of objective reasoning and people will come togather automatically
Immad says:
though i doubt that religious ideas ever prove themselves false
Immad says:
they are not falsifiable by their very nature
Raza says:
they do
Raza says:
they are all ideas
Raza says:
this universe is on well structured system
Immad says:
u can take about popular support for an idea, but u need some sort of experiment to prove it wrong
Immad says:
and its hard to imagine such a criteria for religious beliefs
Raza says:
dont limit urself just to experiment in the physical sense
Raza says:
ideas have a very long history of evolution
Raza says:
people believed all kinds of things
Raza says:
and then they learned to think otherwise
Raza says:
through evolution of thought
Raza says:
new ideas were introduced, were accepted or rejected
Raza says:
but only those survived the test of time, which actually had some element of truth in them
Raza says:
Athiest say there is no God
Raza says:
but the idea of God has survived
Immad says:
but the idea of athiesm hasn't died down
Raza says:
no matter what psychological underpinnings they say of this idea, their reasoning is just an idea itself
Immad says:
so is ours, isnt it?
Raza says:
absolutely
Raza says:
thats what i m saying
Raza says:
unless u loosen the grip here, you will never allow truth to prevail
Raza says:
and whatever falsehood u believe in will eternally remain true for u
Raza says:
thats what we learned through the experiment of science
Immad says:
that is true. there has to be a collision of the thesis and the anti-thesis for the truth to emerge
Raza says:
yup
Raza says:
and athiests are as stuck up on their ideas as religious zealots
Immad says:
loosening the grip is very important indeed. though its hard to convince ppl to do that.
Immad says:
ummm.....but then are't we too?
Immad says:
i mean, whats the difference
Immad says:
and i cannot even imagine a useful argument b/w the two because of lack of actual concrete facts
Raza says:
thats where objectivity and subjectivity come in, objectivity demands facts and reasonable assertions, subjectivity lives on feeling and pre-dispositions
Raza says:
some things, like existing of God are problems so difficult, that no one, neither the religious philosophers nor the atheist scientist has conclusive proof
Raza says:
when u dont have proof on both sides, then all u can do is wait and let facts come in with time and then make a decision
Raza says:
other things, we typically squabble over are not that great
Raza says:
although we convince ourselves they are and close the doors and windows
Immad says:
do u reasonably think that such facts will ever come up?
Immad says:
through which we can determine the existence of God
Raza says:
i dont think so
Raza says:
but as far as how our knowledge of things works
Raza says:
thats how it is
Raza says:
now it is upto the person's subjectivity, how soon can he accept a particular fact
Raza says:
one should not work too hard against well reasoned arguments
Raza says:
when we do that, then its a bit of prejudice
Raza says:
and prejudice has relation to truth
Immad says:
hmmm.....so essentially what u r saying is that if an idea has survived the long history of evolution, it has
a high probability of being correct?
Raza says:
not exactly, but pretty much
Raza says:
in that time, it had a lot time to been killed, but if it wasnt, then it means that there is some truth in it that is stopping all counter efforts from eliminating it
Immad says:
hmm...that makes sense.
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